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Deep cycle or starting battery>>>????

HighTechRedneck

HighTechRedneck

Contributing Member
City
Montgomery
My starting battery is getting a bit old and and so is my trolling motor battery. I want to replace both of them in the summer with 2 deep cycles that have enough CCA to start my boat.
Is useing 2 deep cycles rather than 1 starting and one deepcycle a good idea?
Will I have charging Problems from the boat alternator or damage the alternator?
Will the life of the deepcycle battery be shortend if used as a starting battery?

I have a lake I like to go to but there are no gas engines allowed so having 2 deep cycles would be a longer fishing day. I dont want to have 3 batterys.

On another note for this winter I have one trickle charger and 3 batterys so would there be a problem if I hooked my starting battery and deep cycle battery and motorcycle battery in parrellel with the trickle charger? otherwise I will have to move the trickle charger every few days from on battery to another.

Thanks in advance
HTR
 
HTR, you might want to look at the article - Additions and Modifications to our 210CC.

With the switching setup we have and the Combiner 50, we charge both of our Lifeline Group 31 AGM batteries at the same time, with the charger connected to just one battery.
 
OK now I am really confused

I talked just to Yamaha outboard customer service to find out what size battery I need and they told me to NOT use the gel cell or the agm battery because the engine will not charge the battery properly and could cause damage to both battery and altranator. They said the Yamaha motor only should have the standard lead plate with water type battery whether it be deep cycle or not as long as it has enough CCA which in my case is 505CCA for a marine battery.

What he told me contridicted what the artical said and what I thought I new about batterys.
Any Thoughts?
 
HTR, I can only TRY to repeat what the Yamaha Tech told me when I called them on this question. He stated that they had NOT tested their motors with any AGM battery and that all of their tests were made using the old technology. I failed to ask them what year they were working in, and now I wish I had. The tech did say that their minimum battery specifications were listed in all Yamaha manuals, and that was all the advice he would give.

After almost 4 years I am still happy with my purchase of two Lifeline Group 31 AGM batteries, and when they die, and all batteries die, I will replace them with new Lifeline batteries. The only problem I see is making sure my son is home from college so he can do the heavy lifting. My back is just getting too old.

I have followed my Lifeline Tech's advice and NEVER but the batteries to bed unless they are fully charged. When I had my detached retina problem this year we made sure the batteries were put on the charger every couple of weeks.

Hope this helps. Feel free to e-mail or call if you have more questions or concerns.
 
Batteries

HTR,

Ok, first -- Battery Technology: Gel and AGM batteries have a tighter tolerance for charging voltages than do traditional flooded wet-cell batteries. The reason for this is because during the charging process, all lead-acid batteries off-gas (hydrogen ions are released for the acid solution, causing the boiling point of the liquid to be lowered, causing the water to boil, releasing the now dissolved hydrogen gas and water vapor), i.e. some of the liquid electrolyte is evaporated out of the cells due to the inherent temperature rise associated with the Bulk phase of the charging cycle. The amount of off-gasing is directly proprtional to the bulk chargin voltage, so a higher voltage will result in more heat and more electrolyte lost. In traditional flooded batteries, this is visible by the fluid level in the cells dropping, which is why periodic maintenance on these batteries is necessary to ensure proper life-cycle ("topping off" with distilled water). in el cell and AGM batteries, there is significantly less electrolyte to begin with, and the cells are sealed, preventing the owner from adding fluid. The evaporated electrolyte appears as a white powder on the top surface of the battery. If the plates in the battery are allowed to become exposed, then the battery is headed for a quick and permanent death. Therefore, in order to reduce the potential for electrolyte being lost through off-gassing, the charging votlage for AGM and Gel batteries needs to be tightly controlled at a somewhat lower voltage than traditional flooded cell batteries (13.9-14.1 vdc vs 14.1-14.8 vdc). How does this affect what your Yamaha guy told you? Well, if the alternators Yamaha has installed do not have sufficient tolerance on the voltage regulator, then the added cost of sealed battery technology is wasted due to the shorter life span those batteries will have. (Typical life-span for Flooded-cell batteries properly maintained is 3-5 years, Gel cells with proper maintenance (charging & use) 4-6 yrs, and AGM batteries (again with proper use and maintenance) is 5+ yrs.) With improper chargin, I have seen customers with AGM batteries return within the first year (they were using a charger with a typical output over 14.6 vdc).

Now, lets talk about the different duty ratings. Walk into any marine supply store and you will typicaly see three type of batteries. Starting (or Cranking), Dual-Purpose, and Deep Cycle. Starting batteries are do what their name implies -- Start engines. They are designed to fill this role by using a high quantity of thin plates in each cell, allowing the electrons to flow rapidly out of the plate and into the electrical circuit. This design also has the advantage of being able to allow for multiple starting attempts in a relatively short time-span, since the thin plate design also reduces the amount of time needed for the battery to "recover" (new electrons to flow to the plate surface) after a starting attempt. Starting batteries are most similar to automotive batteries, and can be deeply discharged (up to 80%) without long-term damage to the battery.

Dual Purpose batteries also are contructed to perfom as the name suggests. These are kind of the "Jack of all trades - master of none" of marine batteries. The have fewer thicker plates than a starting battery, but not as thick as a deep cycle battery would. This allows them to still perform the cranking function adequately without risking damage to the battery, but the thicker plate also allows for a slower release of electrons into the electrolyte, which enables the batteries to supply electricity for long-term low current loads (cycling).

If Starting batteries are thouroughbreds, then Deep Cycles are clydesdales. These thing are beasts, constructed of a relatively small number (sometimes as few as 2 per cell, 1 positive and 1 negative) of thick lead plates. These plates can handle the high-discharge need of cranking, but only in an emergency for a few attempts spaced well apart. The electrons are released slowly from the plates, making them ideally suited only for connection to steady-draw, low current loads. These batteries' life spans will be significantly shoirtned if discharged below 50% capacity, due to the enormous amount of time needed to re-intorduce electrons to the plates. Typically, these batteries will exhibit the longest life span if kept no lower than 80% and allowed to charge on a prpoper charger for at least 8 hours.

So, How does this help you? Well, if you are hooking the two batteries to the smae electrical circuit, then dual-purpose is the way to go. If you are going to have a dedicated starting circuit, then I would recommend a High-capacity starting battery (1000 MCA) and an isolated deep cycle batery to run your cycling loads. I would also have these two batteries connected via a paralleling switch so that the Deep Cycle battery can augment the starting battery in an emergency. (such a switch would remain "Off" under normal operating conditions). As for battery technology, I would choose traditional flooded lead-acid batteries. You will have to periodically check and top-off the water level, but for the life span vs cost equation, on outboard-powered boats, they are really the most cost-effective. If you aren't the type of guy that is religious about battery maintenance, that's fine, just be prepared for a maximum three-year life span. This makes even more sense when you figure that a wide-tolerance alternator output can reasonably be expected to give you three years out of a gel or AGM battery as well, at a higher cost. If you are set on sealed battery technology, then definitely choose AGM, as the performance with that tech is vastly superior to the performance of Gel-Cell, and contact a reputable Yamaha engine center to get detailed specifications on the alternator output for your particular model engine.

Hope this Helps!
 
Batteries: Part 2

I wanted to put this in a seperate post since the info will be subjective vs objective.

I highly recommend East Penn Manufacturing for flooded wet-cell batteries. They manufacture the Deka Brand, as well as Sea Volt for West Marine and XPS for Bass Pro Shops, and I'm sure others. They are constructed more robustly than competitors, and typically give more reliable performance for longer life-cycles in harsher conditions. I have personally had flooded batteries give 6 years with zero maintance and hardly and routine charging except during the summer fishing season. (actually, the last two sets I bought were subjected to this punishment.) They also use evironmentally friendlier manufacturing processes, and are able to recycle almost all of a used battery back into their production facility. It's all done on-site in PA. They make a high-quality AGM battery as well, but Like Vic, I really think Concorde Batteries has the AGM market cornered in terms of quality and reliabilty. I only install Concorde AGM batteries in the aircraft I service, and only install their Lifeline AGM's in my customers boats.

Again, I hope this Helps.
 
These are not your standard AGM batterieshttp://www.odysseybattery.com/marine_batteries.aspx and do not vent gasses which is one of the reasons I have mine mounted in the console. They also do not care about charging inputs like many other AGM units.

The use of the words "Marine Batteries" though (with much pun) does not hold water in my eyes for that is only marketing spin. Now I have four of these units and two are used for my trolling motor and as many here know, I more than likely have 10 times the hours on my Minn Kota than I do my Honda ;) and never a seconds problems with any of them...

Having said that now, when I get home the engine won't turn over! Ha-Ha...
 
Batteries: Part 3

I pulled up that site and had one instant reaction -- These look like the Trolling Thunder Batteries form a few years back. Anyhoo, I did a little bit of digging and lo-and-behold, that's exactly what they are, courtesy of Hawker Technologies (the original manufacturer, by the way). Now I cannot speak to the quality of the Odyssey batteries but I do remember their predecessors. They were the greatest battery to hit the lake in recent memory, and seemed like they had no downside. But after a couple of years, almost every battery I had sold had to be replaced, and since Hawker was no longer selling them, replaced with traditional batteries.

As for "Marine" batteries, some are no different than your average automotive battery from wally-world. However, bonafide Marine batteries are built much, much robust. Manufacturers like Trojan, East Penn, and Interstate use thicker plastic for the case, more plates for increased reliability, and more room between the bottom of the case and bottom of the plate to allow for sediment accumulation due to vibration before the risk of short circuit. Generally speaking, purchasing a quality Marine-Grade battery from a reputable marine supplier is the best way I can think of to get a battery that will provide years or reliable service on the water.

Now, back to Odyssey. I hope they live up to the potential the "Dry Cell" technology they employ offers. For us guys (and gals) that love our electric trolling motors, they will be the be-all end-all our fishing style has demanded for so long. Puter, thanks for the info and keep us posted on their performance. I am always looking for the best product available.

Hope this Helps!
 
Great info from Pamarine, and Putershark....



for piece of mind...I have used deep cycle lead plates since I bought the boat in 2002...the batteries are both deep cylce and cold cranking ...6 years without replacement.with no issues:)
 
WOW, There is a wealth of INFO here. thanks for all the responses. I have been running AC Delco up until this point and have had good luck with them as long as they have been mounted in the back of the boat. in my last boat one battery mounted up front and I was lucky to get 2 years out of a battery from all the bouncing in the aluminum beast so i switch to Optima in the front and that worked for 4 years until i got rid of the boat. I think mainily because of the price I am going to stick with Ac Delco or possibly Bass Pro. Assuming the AGM batterys last 6 years I could buy 2 new standard batterys every 2 years and spend about the same amount of money.

THANKS ALL
HTR
 
I have been around boats for a very long time and this was one of the best, most understandable, battery threads I have ever read!!

thxs to all.

recycle
 
I cannot find the other thread on that subject, but thought this thread should work for follow up ;)

If I am not mistaken I believe PAMarine was researching with Odyssey "if" those batteries actually vent gas or not as they advertize when recharging? Do we have a status (rest of the story) on that question as of yet?

Thanks!
 
Sorry to resurrect an old post but I didn't want to start a new one since this thread on batteries was so good. If the moderator believes this should be a new thread then please move it. This forum is great but a lot of the threads are older and sometimes things change with technology. I was about to buy a 2nd battery when I stumbled onto this thread. Very helpful!!!

My basic question: has any of the battery information/recommended in this thread changed in the last 4 years? People's experience with their batteries?

My setup/needs: I'm an owner of a new-to-me 2007 191 FS with a yamaha 150. The boat has 1 battery but has 2 more battery trays next to the current battery in the back, right compartment. I am currently buying a 2nd battery for primary role as "house" battery but to also be available for use in an emergency as a starting battery. I will be buying a 3rd battery for 2016 so that I can use the 2nd/3rd batteries for a 24v 80lb saltwater trolling motor. I am currently adding a stereo radio, vhf radio and when I buy the trolling motor I will be updating my FF/GPS (doubt the electrical requirements will be much more). Based upon what I found I will add a battery switch with 4 positions: 1, 2, both, off. Using the info from this thread, and the fact my alternator is 2007ish, I assume my 2nd battery can be a dual purpose, flooded cell battery and my 3rd battery can be a deep cycle, flooded cell battery. Correct?
 
Last edited:
Years later and I just saw Muddzy's post / question (sorry about that!)

In a nutshell, I ran my original PC1200 Units (all 4 of them) 12 years and only had to replace 1 that was over 10 years old. Now I had two on board battery chargers, and always plugged in both of them as my last step before I closed up the boat cover. I am quite sure, that also helped greatly in keeping them in tip top shape.

Oh and when I did replace that one PC1200 unit, I found them online at some savings, and was able to have it dropped shipped to my front door. Another great feature of having a totally sealed unit ;)

Hope this helps?
 
Hi folks -- any updates/recommendations on batteries? PAMarine's post was VERY informative! Just wondering how the lay of the land is now.
Thanks@
Jim
 
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