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Assuming I can find the "pure" fuel, is it alright to mix with the E10 or should I run out the E10 as I still have about 50 gal. left in the tank (didn't think the cold would move in this fast) from my fill up 2 weeks ago.
 
BarrNone said:
Assuming I can find the "pure" fuel, is it alright to mix with the E10 or should I run out the E10 as I still have about 50 gal. left in the tank (didn't think the cold would move in this fast) from my fill up 2 weeks ago.
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Mixing would defeat the purpose, tbh. You'd be better off to drain it into your vehicles before filling up with "pure". As for a source, check your local General Aviation airports for mogas

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk
 
Push&Pull said:
BarrNone
That's fine if you can find it, but be careful and don't mix up Mogas with Avgas at airports. Avgas is 100LL and not suitable for use in cars or outboards.

Try this link - Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada
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Thank you very much. None in DE but did find one in MD close enough to me. Just remembered that there was an article in local newspaper awhile back that it was going to "pure" gas.
 
While myself and a million others work on a practical solution to the Ethanol/ marine use problem.........I had a thought about an option that may help.

My tank is 85 gallons and I typically never use that much on a single local outing. However I still like to go out with a full tank everytime. Ya never know if you'll need it. But then the boat may sit in my driveway for a while until the next trip. Even if I topped it off, the remaining fuel from before would be older & susceptible to phase separation. Basically, I would always be leaving old fuel more vulnerable to phase seperation. So I figured it might make better sense to pump it into my truck after every boating trip....instead of fueling my vehicles at the gas station. And keep doing it till the boat's tank is empty. That way there is no fuel left in the boat's tank to phase seperate. Then I would fill the tank with fresh fuel the night before taking the boat out again. My vehicles use more fuel in a shorter time and this process would use up the fuel in the boat's tank before it could separate. Sure, it's a little inconvienient, but it beats constantly disposing of 50 or more gallons when it becomes contaminated. As much as I would like to take the boat out and use all my fuel every two weeks as reccommended, it just doesn't work out that way. :cool: Food for thought

I'm also going to experiment by modifying my fuel sending unit. I'm installing a pickup tube along with the sender that will draw from the very bottom at the rear of the tank, which is the lowest point on my tank. I will then attach a hose that can be used with a pump to totally empty the tank when needed or just draw off the bottom layer to remove any water. Then I would simply cap it when not needed.
Hey, I'm doing all I can do. Big corporate or Uncle Sam sure ain't gonna help.........they caused it. Not the first time politicians tried to fix one problem and created a dozen more. They have already approved 15% ethanol. Looks like I'm headed to the store to buy an oar. :(
 
Bill
I have read this thread with a lot of interest the do's or don't do's. The time element for usage makes sense. (but) Having been (now retired) in the automobile business for 40 years. Dealer stock sits in unused inventory for months sometimes up to a year on their lot. Units sit , never started & or run until started up for delivery. This isn't even taken in to account time between build date & dealer drop which according to demand can be another 30-/60-/90 days. When a unit comes off the line it has 3 gallons of fuel installed. Driven off end of production line to storage area waiting for shipment. There has never been a hue or cry that I am aware of over fuel separation. The only problem from the storage duration has/had been dead batteries. Start it up, run the unit till operating temp, than around the block to insure oil circulation to top of engine . Charge the battery if necessary, preform pre-delivery inspection if not already done, fill with fuel (required by manufacturer). That is it.

The problems of course can be increased because of being a boat on water. This is even though the dealer I retired from was surrounded by water in one form or another, along with humidity out of this world. The problem that the public is not aware of with this "ethanol -now we have a corn shortage" is that with the new e ethanol (passed)% 15 that it is qualified, to usage FROM only date certain years. This is because of calibration of the computer systems. When the e 10% first came on the market, Ford motor company spent BILLIONS of dollars in warranty claims from carbon deposits on top of pistons, in high humidity zones, which would take up clearance between the piston & the head. Rod knock like you wouldn't believe on cold start up. The final fix after numerous TSB's/ try this/ try that/ was to recalibrate the processor. ( new TDC base setting) Affix new Federal Emissions sticker!!!!! De carbon the engine, you'll love this, get unit to operating temperature, stall out the engine at idle ( if over idle rods would be bent) by removing a vacuum hose at the intake manifold, sticking the end into a bottle of ammonia. Let unit sit for 24 hours remove spark plugs turn engine over to purge ammonia. Reinstall plugs, run the you know what out of it. If knock still present do it again until the carbon deposits are gone.

I think the answer is in a produce like Startron or a chemical catalyst to break molecular chain and allow dispersant of separated liquids to reintegrate. This along with filtration I think is going to be the answer. By the way this is not a " new" problem back in the " old" days there were drains on fuel tanks at lost point, to drain the water off. Of course that was deemed unsafe by our "great uncle". Back in my younger days I can remember taking a fuel sample in a beaker tube from the wing tanks to test for contaminants. Take the lowest point, angle & attitude for your try at bleed tube. The sending unit may not be at the lowest point. Water in fuel is like killing an ant . Kill one and a thousand come to it's funeral. A drop begets a drop!
Al
 
I still believe if the tank is full of fuel it will not get any condensation in it compared to a half full tank. I also believe that you have a better chance of success with ethanol fuel if you use a high octane fuel ( I use 93 octane)and treat it with stabil or startron. Especially when it sits for a period of time like now. I have been practicing this method since 2004 and so far have not had any fuel related problems. I have the Yamaha fuel water separator filter and change it every 50 hours or six months. I hope this continues to work for me.
 
fridaysoff said:
I still believe if the tank is full of fuel it will not get any condensation in it compared to a half full tank. I also believe that you have a better chance of success with ethanol fuel if you use a high octane fuel ( I use 93 octane)and treat it with stabil or startron. Especially when it sits for a period of time like now. I have been practicing this method since 2004 and so far have not had any fuel related problems. I have the Yamaha fuel water separator filter and change it every 50 hours or six months. I hope this continues to work for me.
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I'm gonna use myself as the prime example of human nature. We tend to hear about an issue and as long as it doesn't affect us, we assume it never will. But then when it finally does, we scurry around seeking any and every remedy in panic, worrying that it will occur every time, from now on. The science fact is ethanol attracts and holds water and when saturated, separates from gas. It's science. We can't change that. but due to the many many variables, it doesn't occur in the same manner all the time. I know. I have been using it for quite awhile and NO problems. I heard about the issues with ethanol but I figured, maybe my engine was different, maybe I stored my boat differently, maybe the fuel I use is different. Then all of a sudden on one trip.... stalling out, problems starting, running rough. All fuel related. I run two Racors (10 micron). Drain them every time, change often. Blah Blah Blah. I corrected the contaminated fuel by removing all of it and now the engine might run fine for awhile......but....it might quit the next time 40 miles offshore, when "Murphy's" along for the ride and everything else goes wrong too. I too, ignored the warnings before. But now, only after having problems, I do everything possible to prevent any and all issues with fuel. - Human Nature - . Now that's me. I can't speak for anyone else. But one thing is for sure.....no matter what I believe......I can't change science or history, but if I ignore it, I will be destined to repeat it. ;) I wish everyone good luck.....but my money's on science. :cool:
 
slider99 said:
You think high test has less ethanol than regular?
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No, if they say E-10, then they have 10% Ethanol added. The octane rating has nothing to do with the percentage of ethanol added.

However, the ethanol accounts for 3 or 4 points of the octane value. When the ethanol phase separates, the remaining gas loses about 3 or 4 octane points. So, if you could siphon off the saturated ethanol, you could still use the remaining gasoline if you started with a higher octane mix to begin with. If you start with the lowest octane and lose the ethanol, the octane would be too low and could cause poor engine performance or damage.
 
Putershark said:
If you do hit the Lottery, don't forget about us Brother :D

Best bet is to find a local supplier of "pure fuel" which some stations still do sale. Try a local Google search for such would be my first recommendation.

Next option you are back to putting in quality fuel with the brands of Mo Jo Juice already stated ;) And then make sure your fuel filters are in great shape to help snag what may still hit the fuel lines.

I only take on fuel every few months and with the combo we have already discussed,

  • Quality fuel Note:I always use high octane which could prevent some "performance" issues others are reporting that could be more octane related and not necessarily due to E10 fuel. Here again, most users and drivers do not understand the possible or long term effects of low octane and low detergent fuel use on injected and computer controlled engines.
  • Startron
  • Fuel filter service / draining
This in an environment worse than yours as far as heat and moisture goes and have never seen an issue with mine or those that I have recommended the same :cool:

Best,
Dave
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I seem to remember that when they started phasing in the E-10 that one of the problems was that if you were using non ethanol and switching over it would increase engine problems. If I fill up with "pure" gas don't I run the risk of increasing the chances for more problems when I start using it again in the spring? For some reason this just hit me so I thought I'd put it out there.
 
not in the least. 99.9% of "problems" attributed to "mixing" ethanol and non-ethanol gasoline were caused by deposits in the fuel system being loosened by the addition of high quantities of ethanol. Good pure gas and good e-10 mixed in a clean fuel system won't cause any issues.
 
BarrNone said:
The Myth of Condensation in Fuel Tanks by David Pascoe: Boat Maintenance, Repairs and Troubleshooting
Curious as to what everyone's take is on this.
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read that, thought about it for a bit, and I think it has some merit, but leaves out 1 large reality. Condensation in an automotive fuel tank isn't an issue for exactly the reason he describes (amount of water in the given airspace). However, boats have vented tanks, and the air in the tank is constantly being exchanged with the atmosphere, leading to a virtually limitless supply of water vapor to condense inside the tank.

As for other causes of water in fuel, they are all very true, but also usually only crop up when the vessel is being used, not during storage (except for the fill-cap seal leaking, which is the #1 cause of water issues in portable plastic tanks)
 
Push&Pull said:
Everybody will use whatever method or additives they choose, but mind you, there is one absolute that you shouldn't overlook. Every single product out there will provide an abundance of indisputable facts and promises about how their additives work......and it's all BS. If you have problems, they won't be there with any warranty or support. Probably pointing a finger at some other issue. Even the fuel suppliers are so unreliable about adding the Ethanol, there is no assurance of only 10%. (the more they add, the more money they make) You won't know at the pumps.... and any higher levels will absolutely damage the engines.
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Really? And were did you secure this data?

So let's head over to the complete other end of the spectrum and fill up a very high content of Ethanol into one tank and run a truck on it not designed for such fuels. Then take it all apart and see just want actual negative effects it may have had on the various parts? ;)

YouTube - E85 Ethanol Does not harm Non-FlexFueled Engines

So do you feel this one was presented in a manner that denotes a hint of being bias? Does not state that you should, just that no issues were found and some parts actually had less wear. Kind of flames out some of this E10 fuel use creating so much havoc in these newer Triumph boat tanks and engines with the materials that are used to build them.

Now do I like E10 fuel? Not really and because it simply does not develop the same amount of "Bang" / Btu's for the same amount of fuel. Does Pure Gas present problems? Sure, it is dirty (long known) and can leave deposits behind which can hurt engine performance. These deposit issues (same crude oil base stock as gasoline) is why some of us also use synthetic lube oils.

Thus Pure Fuel, E10, and even E85 all have one constant... If it is old or contaminated fuel that you pump into the tank, and you do not maintain your systems you could have problems. This is also known as GIGO (Garbage in Garbage out)

The only 100% sure way you are NOT going to have any problems at all, is by leaving the boat on the trailer parked at home all the time out of fear that the use of E10 or maybe a higher ratio due to poor fuel blending practices. Is going to simply destroy your fuel system or engine in as little as X or as some have implied 2 weeks :rolleyes: Really now :confused: show me these parts before E10 was put into the tank and then after it's long time use ;)

Along this very same thinking, I also have your 100% surefire fix for never getting a virus or spy ware on your PC either and is very simple! Never plug in a LAN cable or get on the Internet with it ;) Care to guess where you are right now? :)

As such one can only take those measures as possible to ensure good performance. So where does this leave us in relationship to the original question of storage which morphed into performance at the same time :confused:

Pretty much what has been stated all along...

  • Buy your quality fuel from a "busy" filling station. This helps in many areas and is more important than most first think.

  • Use those additives that help manage not only what little moisture may get into the system. But also help in the control and removal of carbon deposits. These deposits can rob you of performance, force the use of even more fuel, and can present many of the "very same" running problems some are trying to link back to only the exclusive using of E10 fuel.

  • Ensure that your fuel system is as secure and sealed as best possible. This while using and then "maintaining" quality fuel Filters / Separators to help combat water or debris issues. If you are worried about getting large amounts of water into the tank as I posted before, then try a product like this (I am sure there are others) when filling it Home

  • For long term storage is really your choice. Then again actually define long term and all the possible variables that may come into play? I still say that one of your best defensive measures many seem to dismiss, is when the weather permits such, fire it up and let it run for 10 to 20 min... This burns off not only the fuel left setting in the fuel lines of the engine. But helps keep all working parts rust free and moving. Shooting oil (fogging) into the cylinders may help, but really is not getting to the majority of the parts that need covered. Might as well spin it over and let it run (including 2 strokes) to move the needed lube oils around the engine.
Love the discussion and how we are trying to help each other combat issues. I though, just do not subscribe to this aspect of "the skying is falling" or using X will simply destroy it take. Products are many times ahead of the (so called) Science or the long term impacts of their use. Here again who's wallet is actually touting it as being Science? ;)

Stay Warm if you can :D And heading to Florida to try and escape all of this Global Warming we are having right now is not going to help much :rolleyes: So save your money and come see us after the Ice Out :)

Best,
Dave
 
All that said, Dave, I know one thing for sure. Ethanol has been foisted on us by a bunch of charlatans. It's wasteful of land resources, of energy resources, of taxpayer money (subsidies to the mega-farmers such as ADM), is higher in "greenhouse gas" pollutants, as has been recently proven (not that I give one ounce of credence to the man-made global climate change, whether warming or cooling, hysteria), and, as you pointed out, has less energy potential. In real world numbers, the gas mileage on both my vehicles has dropped a solid 10% since they started selling the crap around here last May, and since I live over 20 miles from any town, most of my miles are highway miles. I don't expect any mechanical problems in my car engines or my outboard, but I do expect that as the frauds who are perpetuating the climate change myth continue to force their will upon us, people worldwide will continue to die as a direct result. That statement is not hysteria, it is supported by fact. Truth is a very rare commodity in this world.
 
Dave, Dave, Dave.
Relax Dave. The sky is not falling. It you would notice in any and all my posts, I use words like "variables" and phrases like "use whatever method they choose". I put the information out there as a caution. Warning of potential issues for those that might be unaware. If you choose not to believe it, or not to act on that information......no problem, I've done my part. My posts on this subject have been somewhat basic in detail. I could get into more specifics or the mechanics and how E10 affects engines, but those are other issues. I am only referring to issues with water and boats. The only proof I need is the issues I have actually experienced personally by being forced to use Ethanol, (I didn't believe it either at first). In my youth, I typically learned lessons by experience. Many times with expensive results. And as far as who's wallet is affected. Just try to have engine damage that is related to E10 fuel and see if any Engine Manufacturer will warranty it. I personally, don't have the funds now to "wait and see" and repair or replace a damaged engine or get stranded offshore. So as one of my other Posts' said, My money's on science and caution. And as far as who's science. The same science the fuel companies use and have not been able to circumvent. Where's the proof......It's out there and there's plenty of it, but some will always not heed it till it's their own engine that is the proof. Give it time, you'll get your proof too. However, I do hope you and everyone else are lucky and it continues to not affect you. Boat safe. :)
 
Btw, right now only E10 is an issue. I don't have any vehicles or engines that are "flex fuel" so I won't go into E85. As Harper said above...... I don't expect any issues with my Vehicles and E10. And with the steps I'm taking now, I shouldn't have any further issues with my boat either. I don't care for the reduced efficiency and loss of mpg, but I don't see anything I can do about it, thanks to my Uncle limiting my choices. So I don't anticipate any engine damage with E10, unless I run the motor onto a reef. What will I do about E15? I don't know. For now, petition it.......then I'll cross that bridge when it arrives.

OK, I've said enough, even I'm tired of yaking about it, so I'm sure everyone is tired of hearing from me on the subject. I yield the podium. :p

If anyone has any questions or is interested further, just shoot me an email or message and I'll certainly respond.;)
 
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