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Ethenol fuel concerns

NCangler

NCangler

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Dick, are there any offiical notifications from Yamaha, Suzuki or other motor manufacturers to date concerning the use of the new 10% Ethenol fuel? As the owner of a new Yamaha 150 4-stroke I'd like to know what the Yamaha says before putting any fuel in the boat. The previous post concerning fuel tanks deteriorating due to Ethenol is a concern too. What are the fuel tanks in Triumph Boats made of and is there a concern for the actual tanks in our boats if we use the Ethenol fuel?

Lots of questions and concerns! :( Any light you can shed on the subject without putting yourself in a awkward postition, would be most appreciated.
 
Randy,
The 2006 Yamaha F150 owners manual on page 9 states that fuel containing Ethanol up to 10% is OK to use as long as it meets their octane requirements of 86 octane or higher ;) so your engine should be fine... All of this talk about such fuel blends though, reminded me that I need drain off my fuel water separator bowl :)
 
Whew! Thanks Dave. Dick and the guys at Merritt did install a fuel/water separator for me though and I think that is good insurance. I'll probably have a spare fuel filter on board just in case.
 
I have been hesitant to answer these questions since I don't have all the answers. What I've been able to ascertain is what we have expected, new units will not have any problems with the current mix of Ethenol. However, many of the aftermarket fuel lines and fuel bulbs do not handle it well. Older fuel tanks that have some crud buildup could also cause problems. The Triumph tanks are made of crosslink polyethlene and Ethenol will not effect them. In my openion a fuel/water separator is a must have item.

Dick
 
Thanks Dick!
 
Fuel

I orderwd my fuel filter yesterday from Brownspoint marine for the DF140 Suzuki I have.:)
 
I just put my boat in the water today and due to the darned fuel I have to take it back to the shop again as it's sputtering and running crappy just like last year.

This really sucks
 
I'm a new member but I've always believed in keeping an open mind. Search on subject shows pattern range from "Better watch out" to "Whats all the fuss about".
I propose a study "Adhock" by members. Run a tank of Gasohol and then run a tank of unleaded. Keep an open mind and try to use objective data to compare.
1. Difference in time to plane
2. Difference in GPH
3. Difference in Distance covered per gallon
4. Significants events
5. Positive or negative response using gasohol to clear water out of fuel system.
 
Good idea

Only one little problem...due to the EPA laws once they switch over suppliers to ethanol based fuel that's all you can get.

Here's my tale of woe...

I went through this garbage last year with a new motor, added a Raycor ten mike water fuel filter/separator, and am using marine fuel stabilizer and the motor still took a dump this spring.

Last year with less than 50 hours, the carbs had to be rebuilt and re-jetted, due to this fuel. At that point, the Raycor was added and stabilizer was a standard use item after every fuel up.

During storage this winter the boat was stored with a full tank and was ran for 30-45 minutes at a fast idle every 2 weeks all winter. The boat has a 21-gallon tank and seven to ten gallons of fuel were exchanged every month in the boat to keep the fuel fresh.

A new fuel filter carteridge was installed late March as well

The boat was stored in late October and yesterday I took it out for the first trip of the season and although it ran, it ran like poorly.

Hard to start, poor idle, hesitation on acceleration, loss of power and rpm's at the low end, at the high end rpm's (5000+)it ran better, but still wasn't running as well as last year.

Last season the boat would hit 30 mph @ 5900 rpm this year it barely hit 5900 and only did 26-27 per the gps.

Bottom line is that I have a new boat and motor that I have owned since 5/9/2005 and due to the Yamaha motor and this fuel, it gets to go back to the shop yet again with less than a hundred hours on the motor.

Yamaha sent me a customer satisfaction survey a while back, I saved it until I could take the boat out this spring, here is the "Attached letter" that is going back to Yamaha with the survey.

5/5/2006

I have owned my Triumph 150CC since 5/9/2005 and overall it is a fine little skiff for inshore fishing, the Yamaha 40 four-stroke was reputed to be a good engine although I am more than a little disappointed at its performance to date. The first hint of a problem was last year with the motor was hard starting and refusal to idle until warmed up and it got progressively worse to the point where the motor would die and not run.

The problem was attributed per the dealership to the change from MTBE in California to ethanol mix gasoline in June/July ‘05 here and ethanol’s absorption of water causing corrosion in the carburetors.

The fix was easy, the carburetors were re-jetted and rebuilt (Although getting the jets from Yamaha in Japan took quite a bit longer than expected) a Raycor filter was added with a ten micron water fuel separating cartridge. I think Yamaha should have alerted the dealers to insist on the installation of a filter with the new boat since they knew there was a problem with the ethanol fuel.

I was advised by my dealership to use fuel stabilizer and run the motor twice a month during winter storage. Now here it is 5/5/2006 and after the first fishing trip of the season the motor is unfortunately not running correctly again, it is sputtering, not idling well, surging, and loosing power at low speeds. The fuel filters were changed and the fuel is fresh.

In my opinion the low speed jets are restricted/clogging up again by the way it’s running, once you apply more throttle the rpm’s increase and the surging quits although there is a noticeable lack of top end performance, this is pretty much a repeat of last years problems.

I am impressed with the fuel economy, if I keep an easy hand on the throttle and keep the speed down around 15-17 knots I get an impressive 8.75 per gallon. On one trip, I kept the speed to 15-16 as a test and got ten miles per gallon. Top speed is right at 30 kts @ 5900rpm last year, top speed today was about 26 mph @5900.

In addition, if you were wondering, I would get the same boat again (Although I might go with a different engine)

I’ve owned several different boats in the past with larger motors made by Evenrude, Mercury and Johnson and honestly I must add here that I didn’t have the troubles with those motors that I’ve had with this Yamaha.

I maintain my equipment in perfect order as one’s life can literally hinge on the dependability of the motor with the ocean conditions here when crossing Humboldt Bay bar, having a motor that will not run well places my life on the line.

I would like to add that the Outboard Center where I purchased the boat and motor has been very helpful and 100% supportive on fixing these issues and their service is top notch.
I will be taking the boat back in on 5/10/06.

When the motor is running correctly it is a pleasure to use, however having a motor with less than 100 hours on it and having these kinds of problems makes me wonder if I made the right choice.

To sum this up I am a happy Triumph owner and a very unhappy Yamaha owner at this point in time.

xxxxx
 
An update

I'm happier than I was as Yamaha stepped up and had the shop completely go through the carbs, rebuild and rejet them so a big Thank you! to Yamaha and another big thank you to the Outboard center here in Arcata for the outstanding customer service.
<Remember, this is a motor purchased 5/9/05 and has less than 75 hours on it>

Anyway the boat is fixed and home again, I plan on a shakedown run to the bay this weekend just to make sure.

I did have a couple of conversations with the Yamaha folks in Georgia about this stuff and was advised to;

A. Have a ten micron water seperating fuel filter on the boat. (Did that last year)

B. Use fuel stabilizer (Also advised and done starting last year)

C. Use Ring Free at the rate of 1 oz per ten gallons of fuel (Not advised last year)

E. Never store the boat with a partially empty tank as this causes condensation.

The only kicker is they specified an Enzyme based fuel stabilizer, I found on after some searching , it's called Startron.


Now the bad news, Yamaha says to the dealership in so many words, "Yeah there's a problem with the motors and ethanol fuel, fix the motor on our dime and no we don't know what to do to keep it from happening again".

Oh crap! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
 
I've talked to a lot of other people in real time and on other boards who are starting to have the same sort of problems. There are a lot of filters being changed out and some dealers are "Fixing" the motors through a process of parts change out elimination This is a real expensive way to fix a motor.

The interesting thing is that it's not just the Yamaha line of motors it seems to be across the board as to the brand.

Yamaha asked me had I changed the filters and I told them yes, twice as a matter of fact both the one on the motor and the Raycor.

The reply was "Mayby they are clogged again" I sort of bristled and told the guy on the phone that they wern't clogged in the first place and the boat was new and the fuel tank was clean enough to eat out of.

I pointed out that since the insides of the carburetors were being eaten away and turning to a white goop when wet or powder when dry and this white stuff was in turn clogging the low speed jets all the filtration in the workd wasn't going to help.

I've pulled the filter and dumped it into a jar to see if there was any visible water and the fuel appears clean and clear rather than cloudy when overloaded with water.

I also took the boat out on the 16th and it ran somewhat better but there is still a noticable low end sputter and hesitation. I must have fifty bucks worth of fuel treatments in this tank and I'm foing to run this through and see if things improve otherwise it's back to the shop for the third time.

I'm recomending that if you are having motor problems that you can attribute to E10 fuel first call your state government and complain, tell the dealer and also register your gripe with your motor manufacturer even if your motor isn't under warentee as ther guys will react if there's enough bad press.

An interesting side note here is that I stopped in to get some parts for my little tiller and was talking to the guy behind the counter and he told me that fuel related problems and repairs have trebled. They are a Sthil, Kubota, Snapper dealer and they deal in everything from chain saws and weed eaters to quads and tractors, they found my outboard problems pretty interesting as they see the link.
 
Just a quick update on the fuel/motor issues it appears after running a couple of treated tanks of fuel through the motor (21 gallons a tank) the problems may be cured it starts and runs fine now.

The filter, Star-Tron and Ring Free may have solved it.
 
Suzuki says 10% OK. I always go with Premium gas when the boat is on the trailer and Stabl, added the fuel/water separator....too bad there is not a fuel/ethenol separator out yet. Seems there's a market for Racor or at least one that decreased the ethenol content by 50% or more.
Anyone out there active in the chemical engeneering world? An additive that would bind ethenol and the fuel/water separator would catch it or would burn cleanly. Or is this simply a water in the fuel system problem?
We all should know the power output of ethenol based fuel is lower hence we may be faced with lower powering motors. Should we be adding octane booster or is that risky with four strokes and modern fuel injection?
 
Being concerned after reading the above posts that recommended Star-Tron, I sent an e-mail to Sta-Bil. Their answer is below. My guess, after reading the response, is that Sta-Bil is re-packaged for Yamaha to sell as their own fuel stabilizer. Why would Yamaha recommend something other than their own product? Guess I still have more questions than answers, but I will stick with Sta-Bil for my Yamaha 150 four stroke.


Stick, with proven technology products, that you know, and have used like Sta-Bil. Yamaha also carries a great Fuel Stabilizer part# ACC-FUELC-ND-12 Yamaha Fuel Stabilizer Direct from Yamaha.

These are proven and work. Up here in Illinois (the heart of Ethanol 10% and E-85 ) Sta-Bil has proved it’s value with 10% ethanol blends for more than 12 years. That’s how long we have proved Sta-Bil with 10% ethanol RFG blends.


Robert "Tom" Wicks
Manager of Product Development
Technical Marketing
Gold Eagle
773-326-6354
[email protected]
 
Let me be clear Vic, Yamaha did not recomend Star Tron by name, they recomended an Enzyme based fuel stabilizer, the guy's name was Wilson at the outboard help line.

I mentioned the brand name as it was the only one I was able to find here.

However the bottom line is that as I stated in the previous post it sure seems to work and my motor is running fine now
 
I need some help i can't find the new 10 micron water seperator filter for my yamaha. Online places say they have it but when i call they are out of them. Dick do you carry these filters?
 
There is an article in the current BoatUS magazine you receive as a member that talks about this very thing. I haven't read it in depth but when I do, I will post the highlights of the article.
 
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